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Post by JenniferL on Aug 23, 2004 7:09:37 GMT -5
Mark, I read about your Phoenix Crele and thought I'd ask you about a cross that I've got going. Tentatively I'm heading for Crele Welsumers.
Two years ago I was buying Barnevelder eggs on eggbid and had some Marans/Barnevelder chicks hatch from some of them instead. Last year I took the hen of that cross and bred her to a Welsumer rooster. This spring I did an F1 cross between the siblings and have ended up with a few crele like birds.
Can I ask you some questions?
Right now I don't know who is S and who is s+, although at least one hen has gold in the hackle where another one has less. (Just by coincidence, none of the cockerels from the cross ended up being barred, so they are out of the equation now.) Is it that simple to assume that the 'golder' of the hens is indeed s+?
Also, at this point I can either breed these barred hens back to their father (known to be Ss+ and single barred, as well as e+eb) or go right out to a pure Welsumer (e+e+, s+, no barring). I can see advantages either way, but favour using the pure Welsumer.
My biggest concern is being able to get all of the birds back to a e+e+ base and know that they will breed true for this.
Do you have any suggestions for me?
Jennifer
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Post by Kickingbird on Aug 24, 2004 19:43:42 GMT -5
Let us communicate clearly first Just so I know we are on the same page. By (e+) you are throwing in the extention for black (or non-extention in this case) OR are you saying that (e superscript b) stands for barring? e^b correlates with other genes to produce a different type of barring than we are dealing with (I'm assuming that Marans have sex linked barring as I've never bred them). I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing so we don't get confused. Lets deal with just the silver gene (S) and the sex linked barring gene (B). Your hens should only show red/gold in the neck if they are (s+s+) or (ss) for short. If you breed these hens to a non-barred male you will only get barred males in their chicks. If you breed them back to their sire, you will get both male and female barred chicks. Can you explain to me what you mean by this phrase: "My biggest concern is being able to get all of the birds back to a e+e+ base and know that they will breed true for this." Color wise what do you want that will breed true? From this line I'm thinking you want to be able to breed back to the non-barred side also? Sorry about the questions, I'm just a little confused by your wording....it's just the way I'm reading it (its been a long day) but we'll get it straightend out. Mark
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Post by JenniferL on Aug 25, 2004 7:24:14 GMT -5
Not to worry. I confuse me, too. Yes, e+ for the wild type chick down extension. I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that crele is done on the wild type extension, although I'm not sure the reason for it. However, it would give the hens a salmon area in the chest which is perhaps what is necessary for a true crele? I'm not into showing chickens and just went to my first chicken show this spring--I mainly just like moving genes around for the puzzle aspect. In any case, the Welsumers are on the e+ extension so in trying to get back to them, I need these crele types on that extension. And yes on the sex linked barring from the Marans. The two original cross chicks were typical black down with white spot on the head of the cuckoo barred Marans. Oh, and as to this: "My biggest concern is being able to get all of the birds back to a e+e+ base and know that they will breed true for this." That was some turkey genetic talk creeping in without me thinking. The E extensions equivalent in turkeys, (poult down colours would be B, b+, and b¹) are called bases in turkeys. What I meant was I want to get the birds back on the Welsumer wild type chick down extension which is going to be hard to do since e+ and e^b (the brown extension which the Barnevelders are on) look a lot alike. I've been assuming this will be the hardest gene for me to get into place just *because* those two look so much alike. "Color wise what do you want that will breed true? From this line I'm thinking you want to be able to breed back to the non-barred side also?" Here I'm not sure what you mean by breeding back to the non-barred side. What I'm looking for is to move the one gene, sex linked barring, into Welsumers, and once it's there, and sex linked silver is gone for sure, then to start getting rid of any excess baggage that may have come in from the Marans/Barnevelder cross. Which will mainly be the PgMl of the Barnevelder that I know of at this point. Thanks for the information on s+. That's about what I thought. On writing this this morning I'm realizing sex linked silver or gold shouldn't really matter to me at this point, since whenever I start moving into pure Welsumer, that will be the time that S will be eliminated without too much trouble. Hmm. Well, it's starting to look like I should go to the Welsumers this next year. I can't see any advantage to the F2 cross hens back to the F1 rooster at this point. I'm not even certain I gained anything by doing the F1 cross this spring. Am I missing something? Thanks for the reply. I get things more clear in my head sometimes just by writing it down for someone else. Jennifer
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Post by Kickingbird on Aug 25, 2004 19:25:58 GMT -5
Ok, we are starting to have fun ;D Have you heard the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"? I'm trying my hardest to be the opposite of that.......but I'm not very good at it because everything about breeding chickens intrest me I'll tell you up front that I don't know much about chick down color but I'll try to read up on it as I have time. Infact, I don't realy pay attention until they start to get their feathers! I guess I should add that to my breeding records, it will be useful in the future. So we are trying to breed Crele Welsumers and from your first cross you have two barred hens showing gold/red in their necks. (I'm just recapping for my info and let you know what I'm thinking) Your hens have the barring gene and are (ss) or gold. This is a great start. Crele will end up taking you about four generations to set the color but it is well worth it (in my opinion) This is what I would do. Breed these hens back to a pure Welsumer. This will give you a bunch of all barred roosters. Take the roosters that have the best (clearest) barring and breed them back to pure Welsumer hens. At the same time breed your original barred hens back to A DIFFERENT Welsumer rooster. Then take barred pullets from one line and a barred roo from the other line and breed them together. The birds pure for barring will show more distinct barring (all of the hens that are barred will only have one barring gene) Once you have gold/red set they will breed true because it is recessive. You will get some nonbarred birds for a while as you try to find the roosters pure for barring. However once you have the roosters pure for barring you will get all crele chicks. As a side note I just bought some crele OE games and the hens show no salmon in the breast, just look like little barred rocks. However when I was growing up I had a friend that had OE Creles (standards) that did have the salmon breast so you may have to work on it but since it is recessive when it shows up KEEP that bird and you will do ok. I hope this helps. If you have more questions feel free to keep the discussion going! Mark
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Post by JenniferL on Aug 27, 2004 7:01:48 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm glad you agree with going with the pure Welsumer the next time. I guess my reason for doing the F1 cross this spring was because the Welsumers were being used elsewhere. And I don't have as much pen space as I'd like, of course! Yes, you really need to record chick down colours. The e extension is quite important in most breeds, and if you do much crossing you need to know what you have in the new product. The wild type chick down giving the salmon breasts in hens is dominant to the e^b, although I don't know if it's totally 100% dominant or not. Seems like most things are at least slightly co-dominant, however. My learning is mainly book learning in chickens as well. The e extension dominance is E, E^Br, e+, e^b, e^wh, and then there is some other e extensions that I'm not familiar with that may be floating around at the tail end, as well. Recessive wheaten and something else. I'd have to look it up. In any case keep track of them when you know what they are. With these crosses it was easy to eliminate all of the either E or E^Br from the Marans because of course the chicks were black. But e+ and e^b are both the chipmunk stripe down types with not too much to tell them apart (eye stripe characteristics on face) and its harder. Thanks for the replys. Sure makes things easier to talk it out! Jennifer
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