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Post by Kickingbird on Jan 10, 2004 18:05:27 GMT -5
This forum is for breeders or wana-be breeders of the Modern Phoenix. Please keep your discussion limited to these awsome birds in this forum.
Cheers
KB
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Post by Dave A on Jan 11, 2004 17:26:03 GMT -5
Greetiongs all and thanks for the invite to listen in .
I was recenlty given some "long tailed fowl. They appear to be BB Red or Light Brown Bantam Phoenix. ON one of the roosters I noticed that he had mulitple spurs. The leg color is slate gray /whiteish versus yellow which I expected to find.
Any thoughts
thanks
dave a
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Post by Kickingbird on Jan 11, 2004 18:06:52 GMT -5
Dave,
Great to have you! You will likely find this a more useful forum as more ppl join.
Off the top of my head I would say that you have some Samatra in the background of your birds. Good Samatras are bred for multiple spurs. In addition there are quite a few breeders that are using crosses of sumatras in their long tails OR using other longtails in their sumatras to achieve other colors.
Hope this helps a little.
KB
PS> Dan the poultry guy is working on some Samatras and may have more information than I do.
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Post by PoultryGuy on Jan 12, 2004 0:16:46 GMT -5
Hello Dave & Mark,
(long time no hear Dave!)
Mark may be right about the Sumatras, they are a very common addition to the Phoenix genome and can add a lot to the tail and feather qualities as well as the health and vigor of a line. Mine, from Toni Marie's project line of black phoenix, have Sumatras as well as a few other things added for the above reasons as well as the black feather genetics.
There are a few other possibilities too, Cubalayas are one breed that is both long tailed and has a similar station as the Sumatras, they too have multiple spurs more often than not. Trivia 101, Cubalayas were developed using Sumatras as well as a few others, so this is where they got their spurs from. To that end, there are several "pit game" lines that have multiple spurs and they got their spurs from cubalayas and sumatras. If you consider how many lines of Phoenix have had game blood added, you can see where the possibilities take you.
Without getting too far into it, judging by the "slate or white-ish" leg comments, I would venture a guess that it was just a Sumatra breeding though. Cubalayas have yellow legs, Sumatras are black legged with yellow soles.
What type of comb does this bird have? If you weren't told by the original owner, the comb will tell you if your phoenix is at least two generations removed from it's probable Sumatra ancestor. The reason for this is that the sumatras have a pea comb, which is a dominant trait and would have to be two generations removed in order to express a single comb in the offspring. That would make your Phoenix an F2 or better, "hopefully" back to Phoenix.
I hope that helped you out some Dave, let me know if I didn't cover something and I'll do what I can to help out.
Dan
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Post by Longtailedchicken on Jan 18, 2004 14:23:50 GMT -5
Dan, I don't think the bird in question can truely be called a phoenix with the multiple spurs. I could be wrong but doesn't the standard call out a single spur ? I'm doing some outcrosses with sumatra on a bantam line of phoenix I have but the boys from the cross aren't displaying spurs yet, got started with this project late in the summer. I believe the bird in question would be classified as American Longtail Fowl. Breed him to a phoenix hen and see what the next generation brings. As I said though, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened, just ask my wife(LOL). Best regards, Rick  |
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Post by Longtailedchicken on Jan 18, 2004 14:46:01 GMT -5
Hi all, Well, I probably am wrong  , I don't know what the current standard says but the only thing the new proposed standard says is "Spurs - Hard and set low on the leg. Toes--four on each foot, rather long, straight, well spread". I'm rather surprised that they don't specify in more detail but what do I know, I'm not a show person anyways. Best regards, Rick |
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Post by Kickingbird on Jan 18, 2004 14:56:42 GMT -5
Rick, Great to see you here I know there are so many message boards out there now it is hard to choose the ones you will visit. I totaly agree with you. If I had to classify it I would consider this bird a cross breed at best (say 3/4 phoenix X 1/4 Sumatra). But of course if it has good qualities it could be used in a breeding program with no problem. I'm getting away from showing more and more. I showed as a kid, and wanted to start again but the more I breed the more my taste stray from the standards. In the 1989 Standard there is not even a mention of spurs in the Phoenix section.  KB |
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Post by PoultryGuy on Jan 19, 2004 4:06:03 GMT -5
Hi guys,
I'm a bit worn from the day so my post will be pretty short this evening.
I really can't keep track anymore regarding the whole Phoenix thing so I've just opted to breed the things the way I like and not worry about everything else. I don't show my birds anyways so I guess I'm only aiming to please myself, lol.
Since the multiple spur trait is a simple dominant one, you can get single spurred offspring from cross #1 to a single spurred fowl. This would be caused by the sumatra having only one copy of the multiple spurring trait. So the sumatra may have 'shown' multiple spurs, but his kids would have been variable depending on the other parent. Personally, I wouldn't "cut" a bird for such a minor thing as we're only looking at one gene that can easily be gotten rid of in subsequent generations. That's just the way I look at it though.
As for 'standards' in general, my personal feelings are that they are only as helpful as the are written to be. Most of the ones that I've read couldn't be considered anything more than a basic outline. Just to bring this point closer to home Rick, you took into consideration the single or multiple spurs but didn't even mention the shape of the spurs, lol. I'm not picking on what you said, just bringing up the fact that Sumatras have squared or angular spurs and Phoenix should have rounded spurs.
Not to be droll or cause an arguement but considering all of the "other breeds" that have gone into making either American or European Phoenix what they are today, how can we truely say that a multiple spurred bird wouldn't be a Phoenix verses a single spurred one? What if the multiple spurred one was far superior in all other traits? Should we pass it up based on one simple trait? If so, where do we draw the line? Sorry, I'm thinking aloud again, I really shouldn't do that, lol.
Dan
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Post by Longtailedchicken on Jan 19, 2004 16:38:03 GMT -5
Dan, Very well put and I agree with you totally. As far as the sumatra spurs, I've only got a sumatra hen so I've never been around a sumatra rooster to know what their spurs are like. I've been watching the fellows from the outcross closely and have not seen even the hint of a spur yet. They are still very young though. At what age do you start noticing their spurs? I too only breed to please myself. Can't believe there's so many politics involved with chickens(LOL). Best regards, Rick |
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Post by fowlplay on Jan 19, 2004 22:39:55 GMT -5
well, i am not entirely new to chickens. been studying game fowl the last couple years, plus we also have the regular farm flock. i have been realy looking hard at the pheonix and sumatra type breeds in the hatchery mags, so keep all these conversations going. i need to learn as much as i can before i make my first big buy.....lol i would rather buy from one of you before i buy from a book. poultry guy, keep talking out loud, i might just learn something.............lol
-tony
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Post by PoultryGuy on Jan 20, 2004 0:44:48 GMT -5
Hi Tony & Rick, Lol, I think you'll find that I tend to think out loud quite a bit so there shouldn't be any shortage of rambling thoughts coming from me! Rick, My sumatras will all show a single bud by the time they are about 6 months. Usually about the time they hit 9 months old and their 'primary spur' is starting to grow you will start to see the other buds developing and becoming more readily visible. All mine from last year were hatched out February through April and are now showing full spur expression. Out of more than 150 chicks hatched, I've kept one male and sold one other, the rest were quite tasty.  Both of these cockerels had four spurs per leg and good solid placement. Of the females, I kept only 9 pullets from last year. Right about now I'm sure that you're all wondering why the heck I culled so heavily, lol. Well, that could be a long story but I'll attempt to shorten it. I started my line using two inbred lines from prominant breeders. My intent is to get these guys "back" into what they are 'suppose to look like'. The show ring has made them way over "fluffed" in the tail and hackles and the 'trend' of late has been to breed the hens to have a higher set tail, which isn't correct. The hens should have a tail 'more like' a cubalaya, that being a lower angle. Most of what I see these days is about 15° above the horizontal, it 'should' be more like 15° below horizontal or at the very least, at horizontal. Likewise, the tail should be more fanned, not tightly folded all the time. The sumatras are a mulberry or gypsy faced breed and the males are not suppose to have 'red faces'. I had one hell of a time finding true mulberry faced males I'll tell you that much, lol. The soles of the feet are another area that "judges" need to start looking at but probably won't. Sumatras have yellow soles on their feet, so why any breeder would allow white soled birds into their breeding pens I have no clue. I'm hoping that bringing together two seperate lines I can "jog" their genetics into a recombinant mess that I can sort through and pick out the traits I want. One line may have good spurring, while the other may have nice black faced males. I also like the slightly 'gamier' birds, so the extremely docile ones get culled. Just part of the breed in my opinion. This is why I have so much trouble with showing on a personal level. It's sooooo political that we tend to lose sight of the reason why we have the standards in the first place. When we use a point system to keep the playing field "equal", the birds suffer because a slightly inferior bird is passed up by one that "looks better" even though it may lack some key trait. For an example, a single spurred, red faced sumatra may be 'pointed' for lacking the correct traits, but it can still win over a multiple spurred mulberry faced one. Uhhh......hello? I guess this goes back to the issue that Rick loosely brought up and that I re worded. Where is the line drawn? Maybe poultry breeding has just grown up and we need to start getting away from the "age of innocence" mentality, whereby we 'disqualify' birds for major defects only and let small infractions 'slip by'. I know, I'm far too idealistic by nature, lol. Ok I got off on a tangent, lol-oops. Tony, If you don't mind my opinions, I would like to share a few thoughts of mine when it comes to selecting "who" or "where" to buy your Sumatras from. Not breeder specific, just some generalizations. As remedial as it may sound, it helps to know what traits you want them to have as every breeder has selected for different sets of traits. If it's "really important" to have a specific set of traits then you may have to search around for a year and go to shows to see each breeder's lines. I know of four or five really good lines from show breeders and a couple of hatcheries that carry fairly decent ones as well. I couldn't find all of the traits I wanted in one line, so I chose the two lines that would compliment eachother. Just to illustrate this one line had what I call "domestic chicken" leg scales, nice neat rows of scales on their legs. The other line had the traditional "archaic" leg scales that are more angular instead of rectangular and they're laid out in a more random pattern. They look sort of like little turtle shells that are fitted together. If you're looking for Sumatras that are as "pure" as possible, be very careful of some of the more recent show breeder's stocks. The reason for this is that the trend of the last ten years is to cross in dark Cornish to "improve" on the feather, tail and body characteristics. Some of this may be necessary as there are a few lines of sumatras out there that have soft, fluffy feathers more like a cochin instead of the harder feathers they should have. The tails should 'touch' the ground, not drag. This goes for the saddles as well btw, full......but not dragging. If you want specific opinions on breeder's flocks or hatchery's flocks I would be happy to comment on my experiences as long as everyone is open to the idea that they are just my experiences and opinions and nothing else. I'm critical about what I look at in birds I buy, not the breeders I buy from. BTW, if I talk too much just let me know. I don't get to talk chicken all day so it tends to build up, lol. Dan |
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Post by Kickingbird on Jan 20, 2004 8:25:06 GMT -5
Dan, Great info. As far as the culling goes. Culling is what separates true breeders from the rest of the hobby poultry world! There is not a successful poultry breeder out there that don't cull heavily, they may not tell ppl but they do. Repeat after me: [glow=red,2,300] CULLING IS OUR FRIEND AND MAKES OUR FLOCKS BETTER![/glow] KB |
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Post by PoultryGuy on Jan 20, 2004 9:21:54 GMT -5
Lmbo Mark!
You're right though, we couldn't accomplish much in our efforts if we kept every bird we hatched, our flocks certainly wouldn't improve in quality.
Dan
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Post by Longtailedchicken on Jan 20, 2004 17:49:15 GMT -5
Hi all,
Thanks for the info Dan. As far as culling goes, I hatched between 300 and 400 last season and as of now I am slightly less than 75. I've still been criticised for not culling enough. One fellow told me to make my axe my pet and realise that my pet axe needs blood to survive, chicken blood. I know I do get too attached to certain birds especially the proto-onags. They seem to have a unique personality almost pet quality. Keep up the good work guys. Talk to ya'll later.
Best regards,
Rick
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Post by fowlplay on Jan 20, 2004 19:40:44 GMT -5
dan, what do i say? thanks for the post. i am willing to take all the help, advice, and opinions i can get. if i had an answer, i wouldn't have the question....as fer as what traits i am looking for in bying sumatras? damn good question. i would think more on the line of the more original traits, but untill i get some of my own, i guess i am open to suggestions. thanks again for the reply. -tony  |
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, I don't know what the current standard says but the only thing the new proposed standard says is "Spurs - Hard and set low on the leg. Toes--four on each foot, rather long, straight, well spread". I'm rather surprised that they don't specify in more detail but what do I know, I'm not a show person anyways.
Both of these cockerels had four spurs per leg and good solid placement.